Transcript - Interview with Sally Sara, ABC Radio National

The Hon Alex Hawke MP
Shadow Minister for Industry and Innovation
Manager of Opposition Business in the House

Topics: Labor’s CSIRO job cuts, NSW Liberal Party, Artificial Intelligence.

SALLY SARA, HOST

We're staying with Federal politics and it's unclear what research will be lost at the CSIRO after the national science agency announced it will slash up to 350 jobs. The organisation is grappling with long-term financial challenges as Government funding has failed to keep pace with rising costs. Alex Hawke is the Shadow Minister for Industry and Innovation and joins me now. Alex Hawke, welcome back to Radio National Breakfast.

ALEX HAWKE

Good morning Sally.

HOST

How concerned are you about these cuts at the CSIRO?

ALEX HAWKE

Very concerned. I think we join a lot of the concern that's been echoed even from Labor members like Ed Husic about why the Government isn't being transparent about what's happening at the CSIRO. So we've heard about the 350 job cuts but we've tried to seek some answers about well, what research divisions and what science divisions are being cut in these job losses and it's very hard to get information. The Minister, Tim Ayres, has been out talking about it in some minor publications and some very rare interviews about nutrition or some areas of disaster management but we can't find out why we are we losing scientists and researchers at all from our premier science institution. The Government hasn't even put out a statement yet in relation to this.
HOST

In the Coalition's view, which areas of research should be no-go zones when it comes to cuts?

ALEX HAWKE

Well, we don't have a view on that. I think the CSIRO came to us in Government, there was a pandemic on, we topped them up $3 billion at that time. That was a $3 billion additional investment that was needed. They were doing a lot of research. That was in 2020-2021. So, you know, in the past we've taken the view that the CSIRO needs a big top up, you top them up. Now, the Government has obviously received a funding request from the CSIRO and has said no or we won't fund it or we'll not provide the money. It's up to them to explain what research and what science is going out of that and that non-funding.

HOST

You're talking about the Coalition's record with the CSIRO. Is it important to note also that in the May 2014 Budget, the Abbott Government announced cuts of $110 million and staff levels were reduced by 20%. The Chair of the CSIRO at that time and Australian of the Year, Simon McKeon said that the organisation had been cut to the bone. Is that correct?

ALEX HAWKE

That’s 11 years ago. I think there was, you know, in that Budget a different context -

HOST

What was the different context?

ALEX HAWKE

I think you understand the context of the time, but I don't think we need a history lesson about the Abbott Government, but I do think, since then, subsequent governments have increased the funding for the CSIRO and topped them up when needed. And you know, the Government now has to explain why they're cutting funding to the CSIRO and why we'd lose researchers at the moment.

HOST

Some Coalition MPs have criticised the integrity of the CSIRO, for example, by diminishing the findings of the GenCost report. Have some members of the Coalition been responsible for eroding some of the stature of the institution of the CSIRO?

ALEX HAWKE

I don't think so. All science organisations, especially government-funded ones, have to answer to parliamentary oversight. That will come in all shapes and sizes when people have a right, parliamentarians have a right to ask questions and have them answered and make commentary. It doesn't diminish the view. I think Australians have a very high regard for the CSIRO. The Coalition has a high regard for the CSIRO and we want to see it succeed.

HOST

You're listening to Radio National Breakfast. My guest is the Shadow Minister for Industry and Innovation, Alex Hawke. Alex Hawke, on other matters, you're a senior figure in the New South Wales Liberal Party. What did you make of Opposition Leader Mark Speakman announcing that he is stepping down from his leadership role?

ALEX HAWKE

I was sad to see it. I think Mark, who was part of that very successful Government, from especially Premiers Mike Baird and Gladys Berejiklian, who were very successful in New South Wales and, you know, people have good memories of the infrastructure that they built and the way they've laid the foundation for a pretty successful city. I mean, you've got, Queensland's got, you know, a huge crime problem. Melbourne's economically very depressed. Sydney has got more people from more backgrounds and the bulk of the immigration in Australia is doing really well. A modern city with great infrastructure going forward. And I think it was sad to see him quit. He was a Minister in that Government. But look, it's a matter for the state parliamentary party ultimately and you have to serve at the pleasure of your colleagues in our system and in your State parliamentary party room. They've obviously taken a view that they'd like to change their leadership and that will happen today.

HOST

In Mark Speakman's address yesterday, this is what he had to say. [Audio clip plays] Is there a bleeding of the troubles from Federal politics into the States in your view, Alex Hawke?

ALEX HAWKE

Oh, certainly with brand issues around the country, of course, you know, the Liberal brand is the Liberal brand, but people are very good here in New South Wales at distinguishing between state and federal issues. I mean, they know Premier Minns, he's new, they're giving him a go quite rightly. They're also testing him. I mean, he started to say, for example, don't get used to world class infrastructure in Sydney, you know, i.e. we can't fund it anymore. You know, I think people will judge him on his record. But of course, you know, when you have division in a political party, it resonates. There's no doubt about that.

HOST

What do you think of first term MP Kellie Sloane, the Member for Vaucluse, as a likely leader?

ALEX HAWKE
She's fantastic. I do think it's good that new MPs are considered. It's not a time serving process in politics. Experience matters in all professions. But, you know, Kellie is a very experienced person in the media, and her background is excellent, just like any other contenders will be. And I'm glad the Liberal Party is looking at people like Jess Wilson to lead us in Victoria, a new generation, a millennial generation. You're starting to see people come through our ranks and take leadership for the future.

HOST

On a separate issue before we finish up, on the rise of artificial intelligence, you've been critical of the government's steps to regulate the sector. A month ago, the government ruled out changing the law to make a copyright exemption for AI companies training their AI models on creative work. Do you support that?

ALEX HAWKE

We supported that, and I called for that after having a close look at the Productivity Commission. We questioned why the Productivity Commission even suggested that our creatives, our musicians, our artists, shouldn't be properly compensated and protected by law with the advent of artificial intelligence. And I reckon Aussies are going to be totally behind that. Like, why should our creative industries not receive the benefits of their work? You know, it was scandalous. I think the Productivity Commission made an error in putting forward a recommendation that said AI should be able to data mine music, art, creative writing, all the things that people should be properly paid for and properly protected.

HOST

Alex Hawke, thank you for joining us on Breakfast this morning.

ENDS