Transcript - ABC Radio Sydney, Monday Political Forum with Chris Bath

The Hon Alex Hawke MP

Shadow Minister for Industry and Innovation

Manager of Opposition Business in the House

Transcript

ABC Radio Sydney, Monday Political Forum with Chris Bath

Topics: Net Zero, EPBC, Industry policy, Tomago, BoM website changes, Liberal Party.

E&OE …

HOST, CHRIS BATH

Joining me today, Allegra Spender, the independent member for Wentworth, Alex Hawkethe Shadow Minister for Industry and Innovation and the Federal Member for Mitchell, and Sally Sittu, the Labor MP for Reid. Welcome to all of you. Now, we thought we'd kick off with net zero. So yesterday the Nationals dropped their commitment to a Net Zero climate change target. Here's the Environment Minister Murray Watt describing Labor's take on the decision on ABC TV's Insiders on Sunday.

[Audio clip of Murray Watt on Insiders]

That's Environment Minister Murray Watt on Insiders on Sunday. Alex, you're the Minister for Opposition Business in the House, then that's the junior partners in the Coalition. Is the tail going to wag the dog here?

ALEX HAWKE

Not at all. I mean, the Liberal Party has said from the beginning we'll have our own policy process. That's well underway. You know, we're coming to the end of that. We'll certainly have our own considerations. I mean, Murray Watt there is talking pure politics, but he ignores his own bureaucracy and his own government modelling which shows we're not going to meet our commitments by 2050. Energy prices are soaring. We have challenges with our grid and the renewables rollout isn't going very well either. It isn't helping Tomago in New South Wales who needs renewables and they're just not there. So the government should be primarily focused on policy and delivery. They seem to be just playing politics. We have a responsibility to set our policy and our policy for the next election and for Australians to understand that policy. But the government has a bigger responsibility and that's to actually do things and to get this right. And you couldn't argue that that's going very well at the moment. All of the modelling across all of the government says they're not going to deliver on their own targets.

HOST

Just forgetting the government, though, haven't you got a problem if you're not on board with the Nats at the end of Dan Tehan's review?

ALEX HAWKE

No. Well, obviously, we are a coalition. We always have been. We have distinct identities. The Nationals primarily represent rural Australia and regional Australia. The Liberal Party has always represented both, the regions and the cities – we’ve got an obligation to set our policy. We'll do that and we'll continue our coalition by agreeing on that policy. That process is underway. We've just been delivered a defeat by the Australian people. We've been given the time to recreate our policy. That's what we're doing.

HOST

So do you think the Libs should drop net zero?

ALEX HAWKE

Well, I'll keep my counsel private because I'm on the energy working group. I'm taking the soundings and working through it. We are well advanced in that part of the process and, you know, we'll announce that in due course.

HOST

You've got moderates though already, backgrounding journalists, saying they prefer to split the coalition than drop net zero aspirations. Some of them seem willing to quit the front bench over the issue. How does Sussan Ley navigate this?

ALEX HAWKE

Well, we navigated by talking to each other. We had had good meeting on Friday where there was huge consensus around a lot of key policy areas. I mean, every Liberal agrees and every National agrees that the cost of net zero at the moment is unacceptably high on Australians. Most industries are closing because they can't get the cheap power they need. They're citing doubling of the energy costs. And a doubling of an energy cost for a huge industrial manufacturer is a disaster. And that means thousands of people are losing their jobs and we're losing heavy industry. There isn't enough government bailout money to subsidise these businesses. We agree on these things. We're going to come together around the things we do agree on.

HOST

Allegra Spender, you're on the outside looking in. What do you make of this?

SPENDER

I think it is the Nationals once again dictating to the Liberals their climate and energy policy. And, you know, I just think that is an enormous shame because I think, you know, let's look at where the country has been and where the country needs to go. Business backs net zero and that commitment, and that's because business recognises we actually have to transform the energy grid. To do that, we need to make investments, and to make investments, business needs certainty. What the National Party and now probably the Coalition are doing is creating more uncertainty again in this transition. That's what they did for nine or ten years that they were in government. And problem is when you have all this uncertainty, business doesn't make an investment and surprise, energy bills go up. Now look, if you look at some recent modelling from the Grattan Institute, which I think is really valuable, it shows that households backed know, backed by fossil fuels, will be spending around $5,000 a year on their sort of energy fuel bills. If the household has clean energy, including electric vehicles and others, it can get its annual energy bill down to, you know, just under a quarter of that. And so what we should be doing right now is working out how do we help more households do that. That's really important instead of once again creating more uncertainty which just makes this whole transition expensive and more difficult for the country. And who pays for it? It's the consumers.

HOST

Sally, Alex Hawke pretty much says you're mismanaging the transition. Is it something that Labor should consider, dropping net zero? It was a coalition policy in the first place. Scott Morrison signed us up to it.

SALLY SITOU

I think it's really unfortunate that we're having this debate again. This is a re-ignition of the climate wars. We've heard all of this from John Howard, Tony Abbott. This is a way for the coalition to squib on acting, to put any policies on the table about what we're going to do to move off fossil fuels and to reduce our emissions. What we're doing as a government is saying that we've got a clear path. Our path is to get to net zero by 2050. We've got policies in place to be able to get there. And there's some great news. Last month, we had 49.9% of our energy in the grid from renewable energy. And there was a point there when it was about 79%. These are good metrics that are pointing all in the right direction about where we should be heading and that's off fossil fuels and onto renewables.

HOST

The only problem is though you've got industries Tomago Aluminium in Newcastle, which employs 1,000 people, saying it's going to have to shut down because power prices could force it out of business. Is there a way for the government, Sally, to better navigate the cost of power while Australia makes the transition to renewables? I mean, clearly it's not working for some elements of Australia.

SALLY SITOU

Let's be really clear about what is happening in Tomago because Rio Tinto, there are two facilities that we can compare here, one in Tomago, one in Gladstone. Tomago's problem is that they cannot get enough cheap renewable energy to power that facility. Gladstone can. And Gladstone is not in any danger of closing because it is able to get cheap renewable energy. So the solution here is not to to have a debate about whether or not we go to net zero, not to have a debate about trying to reignite coal-fired power stations. The solution here is to get more renewable energy into the grid. And frankly, it's pretty disappointing that the Coalition are having this tired old debate again that we have been seeing from the Coalition for more than 20 years.

HOST

Allegra Spender, does the government need to speed this up? I mean, what Sally's saying isn't going to presumably help Tomago in the short term.

ALLEGRA SPENDER

Sure. I mean, I don't think we should let the government off the hook in relation to this energy transition. And there are, I think, a bunch of things they should have done and should really get onto right now. One of those is, particularly in relation to Tomago, one of the big challenges that has been identified is really slow approvals. And frankly, the government should have taken action on those approvals and speeding that up through EPBC reform last term, and should be working and trying, putting strong incentives in the state level as well to make sure that this actually happens. So that is one of the significant issues. I think secondly, we you know, do need to support vulnerable communities in this transition. I have a lot of renters and dwellers, for instance, in my area who are currently don't have some of the opportunities to put solar on the roof or batteries in the garage, like people who own their own homes. So I think that there are challenges about supporting those sorts of communities as well. And if we want to reduce emissions, let's look at some of the things that are simplest and easiest and would have the biggest impact and things like ending native forest logging and dealing with land clearing, for example, areas where we could reduce emissions really quickly. So I think the government does have a lot of action to take. We should be trying to, absolutely trying to minimise Australians' energy bill, help as many families and businesses get access to cheaper energy. But the answer is not to re-prosecute this whole net zero thing. The answer is to get on with the job, give business certainty and move.

HOST

Alex, do we need to speed up the transition to renewables so we don't have industries like Tomago being forced to shut down?

ALEX HAWKE

Well, I mean, the issue there is a bit more multifaceted than lack of renewables. That's one problem. We've spent too long in the last decade demonising a lot of our fuel sources. The Victorian Labor Government, I mean, Allegra overlooks it and Sally overlooks it, you know, banned all gas and gas intervention in Victoria. And in New South Wales we've had no new gas come on either. This has been a big mistake. The only party that went to the last election with a gas reservation policy domestically was us, the Liberal National Parties, and we need better gas contracts, prospectively, in Australia that actually give Australians options on the gas first, cheaper and better access to our energy abundance. We have energy abundance in Australia, and yet we have the highest power prices for households and industry in the world. The loss of this competitive advantage, we used to have cheap power in Australia, has meant Australian manufacturing and industry can't make the sums add up. Now, renewables are cheap and they do help, but the reason that they can offer them in Queensland is because Queensland's allowed gas, conventional and fracking, extensive fracking over many, years, whereas Victoria and Wales have not. So it is a fantasy and we do have to continue to have this debate because Australians know their power bills are going up.

ALLEGRA SPENDER

But I think what they do know is that their gas bills are going up because of the international pressure on gas prices. And I haven't met an economist or a scientist who says, you know, what we need to do for Tomago is to actually replace renewable energy by, you know, gas as a major load source, you know, for driving the economy. I think it's really clear. For instance, you know, gas has a role in terms of peaking. So there when the sun doesn't shine and the wind doesn't blow, but from a cost point of view, it just doesn't make sense for gas to drive energy an entire industry at scale. It is just too expensive. So, I mean, I think that we've got to be realistic about this, not just assume that this one sort of policy would fix it all because we know that actually there are real challenges of gas as a main sort of load source as opposed to its use as a peak.

ALEX HAWKE

But there's a lot of industry that relies on just gas. They don't use electricity. They need gas for manufacturing. And we should be able to offer it cheaply in Australia.

HOST

You're listening to the Monday Political Forum. With me, Alex Hawke, the Shadow Minister for Industry and Innovation and the Federal Member for Mitchell, Sally Sitou, the Labor MP for Reid and Allegra Spender, the Independent Member for Wentworth. We were talking about the pain that people are feeling through this transition to renewables. We're looking at sky-high power prices. It's really having an impact on a lot of housing and particularly people who are renters, people who are on low incomes who can't afford to sort of join the grand transition. The government's energy bill relief subsidies are going to end in December. Should they be extended, Sally?

SALLY SITOU

We've always said that these were temporary measures to help households during a cost of living crisis that we had. And the Treasurer has said that it's going to taper off. And if there are any decisions be made about whether they continue, I'll leave that to the Treasurer and relevant ministers. But what I am really proud of is the work that this government is doing to help households permanently reduce their energy usage. So things like the cheaper home batteries where we reduce the cost of home batteries by 30%, that's a real reduction over many years. And, you know, I've got many residents in my local area, there's 100,000 of those home batteries across the country now who can see their savings firsthand by looking at the app one of my constituents call it the power porn that they get to look at how much they're saving and I think that's fantastic that that is a permanent measure put in place to reduce your energy usage and Allegra makes the point that we need to make this available to as many people as possible. And so the other measure that we've got is a fund that helps people with energy efficiency upgrades, a heat pump, insulation. And that's all about reducing your energy use. We've funded upgrades to social housing to make them much more energy efficient so not having to see those big energy bills because we're not using as much energy. That's something that I'm really proud of the work that that we've done in this space.

HOST

Allegra Spender, is that enough to ease people through the transition?

ALLEGRA SPENDER

I don't think it is. And I think let's look at who's not really being serviced. And I think sort of renters and apartment dwellers are come up, raised in particular, because, you know, I acknowledge what the government has done in this space. I think it is important. But, you know, the bill, the relief that Sally mentioned, excluding the battery relief, that actually hasn't really flowed through to lots of people. Actually, the take-up on some of of. Actually, the take-up on some of the home electrification has been really low. And if you are a renter, if you're moving around, if you are an apartment dweller, you don't have options on solar and batteries, there isn't actually a lot of options there for you. And so I think this is where incentives for landlords to upgrade and help electrification of their own properties. I've been having this conversation with the minister for the last three years, and I will continue to have that conversation because we know renters are some of these Australians who have felt this transition and, frankly, this cost of living crisis the hardest, but they're not really supported in this way. And I think that's where I believe the government needs to target. It's those ones who are currently missing on some of these options and really help them achieve some of the benefits that those who have more control over their own homes can achieve with solar and batteries.

HOST

Alex Hawke, should the government be extending its energy bill relief subsidies?

ALEX HAWKE

Well, it's very unlikely that governments can continue to do this model. The cost of the service is going through the roof. That's what everybody knows. And the reason they're usually providing that subsidy is to try and get through that particular period. The federal government's going to hit $1.2 trillion of debt. There's a lot of interest on that, but we also know they act in an inflationary way. The more government spending there is, it doesn't solve the problem. And inflation is the biggest tax on people at the moment, the increase prices you want the subsidies dropped well the subsidies are being dropped it's not a question of whether we want them or not the question is would you continue them it's unlikely governments can continue to pay people's high power bills or subsidise these things off their balance sheets they're very expensive they cost more than the benefit they give and in the long run it's unsustainable. We've got to do more to get the cost of the service down, even if the government's paying the bill.

HOST

You're listening to the Monday Political Forum on 702 ABC Radio Sydney Drive. With me today, Alex Hawke, the Shadow Minister for Industry and Innovation, Allegra Spender, the independent member for Wentworth and Sally Sittu, the Labor MP for Reid. I'm sure you all had a lot of light reading over the weekend. 1,500 pages of the new Environment Protection, Biodiversity and Conservation Act. The devil was in the detail. It hadn't all been available until last week. As you all are very well aware, I'm sure the government needs a coalition or the Greens on board, I'm sure it would like crossbench support as well, to get the EPBC across the line. It would like that that to happen by the end of the year. Somehow that seems a little unlikely. Let's start with you, Alex. What are the sticking points for you?

ALEX HAWKE

Well, the purpose that the government is saying with these 1,500 pages of legislation is to streamline approvals. That seems unlikely with a number of the proposals that are in there. Now, the Coalition is looking at this constructively. We'd like see a working approvals regime in Australia. We are saying to the government a federal EPA, which is the same as state EPAs, isn't going to achieve that end. It's going to be a duplication of existing roles. And the states have good EPAs that do a good job. They make things very tough on applicants and businesses. And having a federal EPA that does the same function will create that typical problem we have in Australia of both Commonwealth and state agencies doing the same job, making things more expensive and delaying things more than anything else. There are problems that we have with the inclusion of Scope 1 and Scope 2 emissions in this bill. It's already required that businesses report on Scope 1 and Scope 2. We don't think this is needed in this bill. It's another duplication. So if we're streamlining approvals, so there's a certainty for business, as Sally says, and we can get approvals on a playing field where they can know where it's going to take this long, where are they going to get the approval, we need a faster yes or a faster no, we think there's improvements to be made. But we'll continue to negotiate and hopefully see a better bill and a better process.

HOST

Allegra Spender?

ALLEGRA SPENDER

So we've got to come back to what's the purpose here. And I think it is about how can we deal with the fact that we are currently, we have some of the worst outcomes in terms of threatened species, terms of extinction in the world, but we also have some of the slowest approvals in the world. What we're doing is, our current regime is both bad for business and bad for the environment. I'm looking at this bill, and it is a whopper, through both those lenses, saying, you know, how can we have the right standards? How can we have the right enforcement? But also, how can we streamline and make this faster? And so there are some challenges here. I think, for instance, there's this idea of sort of national interest, where the minister can overrule sort of environmental standards because of, you know, by claiming national interest. I think that is vague and of concern to people. The land clearing and logging is not currently included. And we know that I think it's 11.2 million hectares of land was cleared in the last 25 years under the Environmental Protection Act. And that has had a really big impact on the environment through that land clearing. So there are some real issues there. I know business, talking to business, there are some issues there. So I’m working through as well, trying to get the detail, trying to be constructive. This is important to pass. I do want to see this reform done.

HOST

Sally, I’m just going to presume you’re the pro-EPBC person. I do want to get to my last question. The Bureau of Meteorology has made amendments to its rather badly received website. Has it done enough? The majority of Australians are quite furious. Sally?

SALLY SITOU

I can understand the frustration of the Australian public. This is really important information that needs to be accessed quickly. The Bureau needs to do a better job of its user-testing, making sure they’re talking to their audience. That’s what the Minister has told them to do.

HOST

See, I had the Bureau on the program and they told me that Consultation had been going on for ages and basically where had I been and I was the thing you hadn't been asked about this Alex do you think there's more to be done on this amending the website?

ALEX HAWKE

This is typical of government agencies. I mean people use the Bureau of meteorology site for some pretty important and specific things. Rain, floods, fires and when you just go to ordinary people, they actually rely on it. So, you know, you can do these consultations across a lot of money. But they just don't get to the essence of what people care about and they care about this. It's bizarre that they haven't realized that. We sort of laugh about it, but you know, this is critical information in this day and age and I hope the government really gets on top of the agency. That's a minister's job, to be on top of their agencies, especially when they inexplicably ignore their own users and their own user data about what's vital about the Bureau. I don't think it's that hard to work out what people go to the Bureau of Meteorology about. It's critical weather information and they and they really like it. So the Bureau has stuffed up here.

HOST

Alex, just before I let you go any thoughts of a tilt at the leadership this week, you know, I'm not going to be doing that You think now is the time I just thought I'd sneak it in, you know. You think this is the perfect moment to strike? Allegra and I can help you do the numbers.

ALEX HAWKE

We might discuss that offline Chris if that's your view, I haven't heard that today, it's the first time I've heard that today.

HOST

There's some speculation that Sussan Ley’s in strife.

ALEX HAWKE

Oh no, there isn't inside the Liberal Party. That's not happening at the moment. We're purely having a policy fight in our own ranks about what's best for the Liberal Party's policy. We avoided those last term, we had total unity but not much discussion about policy. It does look untidy but I think it's vital to have a policy discussion and disagreement and we're allowed to do that in our party.

ENDS