Transcript - Interview with Melissa Clark, Afternoon Briefing, ABC
The Hon Alex Hawke MP
Shadow Minister for Industry and Innovation
Manager of Opposition Business in the House
Interview with Melissa Clark, Afternoon Briefing, ABC,
8 October 2025
Topics: Glencore bailout, Labor’s sky-high energy prices, higher taxes and rigid regulation, Labor’s industry subsidies, energy policy, Liberal Party, Australian-Indian community.
E&OE
Host, Melissa Clarke
let's return to Glencore's bailout that's been announced by the federal and state governments today for the Mount Isa operations in Queensland. I'll bring in Alex Hawke, the Shadow Minister for Industry and Science. Thanks very much for being with us.
Alex Hawke
Thanks, Melissa.
Host
So the governments, both the Queensland and the federal governments, have chipped in together a 50-50, $600 million bailout to keep the Glencore's operations going for the next three years. Is this the right thing for the government to do?
Alex Hawke
We've welcomed this. It has to happen, but we do make the point that it's very sad that it is happening because it's not the only bailout going on at the moment. There's been big money for many of these big companies that are running operations in Australia. And the simple fact is it's too expensive to do business in Australia at the moment and these costs are mounting. We're asking the government to get on with its plan of how do you actually make it viable to have heavy industry and manufacturing in Australia? And when you look at their policy responses, the Future Made in Australia agenda is becoming very questionable. And the National Reconstruction Fund is being poached continuously by the Minister, Tim Ayres. He keeps repurposing the money, taking it away. And when you look at the bailout today with Glencore, it needed to happen, but effectively, that's, as the Prime Minister said today, 600 jobs, direct jobs, but that's $1 million per job. It’s a very expensive bailout.
Host
Philosophically, does the Liberal Party not want to have more industry bailouts?
Alex Hawke
Absolutely. We have to get back to the idea that manufacturing can compete and heavy industry can compete. And the government's missing the forest for the trees here. You've had billions of dollars for Whyalla. You've had hundreds of millions of dollars for Nyrstar, now for here up north in Kwinana. This is not the end of the bailout train. There's a very expensive list of requests in front of government at the moment. And you've got to look at how that can be managed and how we can make sure they can actually compete.
Host
So, on the question of why, there are two themes that are consistently pointed to by the sector and by the government. One is the price of energy, particularly gas prices. The other is what we're seeing on global markets when it comes to critical minerals in particular, and that is control and manipulation of parts of the market by other state actors, particularly China. Now, a number of the heavy industry operators say that they're not working on a level playing field. So if we want this kind of capability in Australia, it is going to require investment from the federal government. Do you accept their case there?
Alex Hawke
Well, there's a lot of factors involved here, and I think energy supply is obviously critical. So the government, at the same time energy prices for industry have been going up, have been increasing the amount of taxes and charges that are going on to business.
Host
I do want to go into gas a bit more, but on the national security issue, do you accept the argument from the resources sector, which says there is an uneven playing field because of countries like China and what their state-owned entities are doing and that if Australia is to retain that sovereign capability, it needs federal government support?
Alex Hawke
There will be market factors that come and go and sometimes have state components in them. So it's reasonable for the federal and state governments here to step in. Before we get there, my argument would be we have things that we control and we have things outside our control within Australia. And things we control are the cost of doing business in Australia. And the government's not thinking about this. The tax regime in Australia, the regulation regime, the cost of energy is the number one concern of industry at the moment. Number one. So if the cost of the gas goes up and continues to go up and there's no relief on that, there'll be no hope of them dealing with other factors.
Host
So we've seen, for example, Blue Scope's CEO today say that there should be a gas reservation policy for the east coast. Would the Coalition support that?
Alex Hawke
We took one to the last election. We were criticised for it by industry because we were going to break some eggs in relation to dealing with this problem. We still believe gas is one of the key answers going forward. I'm on the energy review taskforce of the Coalition, we had a meeting even today about this, and gas is high on the list and a gas reservation, that domestic gas reservation, needs to be looked at very carefully. And we're looking specifically at, you know, how can we have all of these gas reserves, we cannot have cheap energy supply to our domestic residential consumption but also industrial consumption.
Host
So are you effectively in the same place that the Labor Party is? Because they have a gas market review underway right now and they've made indications that some kind of reservation policy is what they're looking at. So is the Coalition and Labor effectively on the same page here?
Alex Hawke
Well, we don't know what their plan is yet. yet. The review is the review. But we took to the last election a domestic gas reservation policy.
Host
That's not your policy currently?
Alex Hawke
Well, it's under review because we've announced our review since we lost the election and we have to look at it again. However, there is real scope in what we're doing in energy for using Australian gas for Australian interests first and making sure manufacturing can have a regular, cheap supply of energy so we can compete.
Host
Are there any red lines that you can confirm while you're reviewing the policy? For example, would you be open to changes to existing gas operations to see gas reserved from existing?
Alex Hawke
Well, it's going to have to be dealt with. Some of these things are going to have to be tackled. Our policy was criticised by industry at the last election for being too brutal with industry, but ultimately Australians have the expectation, I mean, before we even get to heavy industry and smelters and manufacturing, we're charging pensioners in their home a fortune for electricity in Australia and electricity generation. We have to tackle these issues. Australia has energy abundance. These things have to be looked at and we are looking at them.
Host
Did you see Madeleine King's comments to Asian investors in Australia's LNG market? She was assuring them that Australia made a willing partner to ensure they have security and energy supply. Reading between the lines, that seems to suggest that Labor doesn't want to do something that would affect existing contracts. Would you support that position?
Alex Hawke
It’s a conflicting signal. I think before we get to the issue of existing contracts, we have to think about what the future investment in gas looks like in Australia. There's the issues of pipelines. There's a number of things to consider. However, the Australian people and the Australian industry does need to have certainty that the government's got its own interests first. The contracts that may have worked for us in the past may not be the contracts we sign in the future. We have to make sure that they work in Australia's interests first.
Host
And how do you make sure that heavy industry and these very profitable resources companies aren't taking governments for a ride when they're looking for assistance in getting through these times?
Alex Hawke
It's a very difficult problem and the government has to be very aware of it. And certainly while we welcome the announcement today, especially about Glencore, yes, many of these companies are multinationals. They are highly profitable. We have to look at the conditions in Australia first. That's what we can control. And unfortunately, a lot of the government's policies are going to increase cost on manufacturers.
Host
Now, I do need to ask you about some issues within the Liberal Party It's been an interesting couple of weeks. We've seen a bit of leaking from the Liberal Party this week. Does that need to stop?
Alex Hawke
Always. I think it should. You know, in general, people don't leak against colleagues. However, sometimes it happens. I think effectively...
Host
Why is it happening?
Alex Hawke
Well, I think in politics people leak all the time. I mean, you rely on that as a journalist.
Host
I welcome it, but I understand you might not welcome it.
Alex Hawke
And it happens in all major political parties at all times. However, I think here we are going through, you know, after a bad election loss, a pretty bruising process of discussion with each other. It has to happen. One of the criticisms of the previous term was that we didn't actually have the real discussions with each other. We did prioritise unity, but now we have to prioritise being honest with each other, so we'll have those conversations.
Host
But there's being honest with each other and then there's leaking about criticism that's happening internally. Is Sussan Ley failing to keep the troops in line on these matters?
Alex Hawke
No. She has a different culture and a different approach to the previous leader, and that is you can speak your mind in the party room. Now I welcome it, and people are speaking their mind. Now, that comes at a cost. Sometimes it looks a bit more messy. However, you do have to be able to speak your mind and you have to be able to sound out policy. And if you're constructive, colleagues, I think, are going to be receptive.
Host
Do you think your colleagues across the board in the Liberal Party are giving Sussan Ley the backing that she needs as leader?
Alex Hawke
Overwhelmingly, yes, and some people are pulling on policy areas, and that's fine. Policy debates will be welcomed inside the party room. I think sometimes people are looking at how bad we are and making incorrect assumptions, but that's a debate we'll keep having.
Host
What do you mean by that?
Alex Hawke
Well, sometimes I think the reasons why we lost... People might make an incorrect interpretation about why we lost.
Host
What are the right reasons?
Alex Hawke
Well, clearly, we didn't have a clear policy offering for the election in any area of policy and that was a real problem.
Host
While this policy debate is underway there's some in the party that seemed to want this to speed up for the policy debate to be sorted out a bit quicker so that they can unify behind a position and have less outbreak. There seem to be others who think, no, we need to let this play out as long as it takes. The next election is a very long time away. What's your view about how fast or slow this policy debate should take place?
Alex Hawke
Well, it's a constant tension. I think the Australian people only voted us into this position just a short time ago. They always give their governments, especially with an overwhelming majority, their support for a period of time, and the Albanese Government's enjoying that support of the public still. They'll have to make some decisions eventually. I think more than one person's noticed Mr Albanese is going very slow with a majority effectively in both houses on real reform. Eventually, he'll have to make decisions. The Coalition has to make its own decisions, which we are. We've got our energy policy working group, we've got our new policy working groups. We're having some pretty difficult internal discussions about things and they have to be had.
Host
Are they reconcilable, those differences?
Alex Hawke
They are reconcilable, always. And we've always had different traditions in our party, progressive and conservative traditions. They've been fused together over 100 years from the early days of free trade and protectionism. You know, we've been able to work these things out.
Host
Do the proponents of policies who might eventually lose? Because, ultimately, if you're going to settle on a position, there's going to be people whose positions aren't accepted, do they need to accept that they're on the wrong side and learn to argue for a position that they don't necessarily hold? Or will there always be room for vocal dissent on the backbench?
Alex Hawke
Always. People can speak their minds. I do think, though, in any team, you have to submit yourself to the will of the team and their opinion. And that comes in anything, whether it's sport or whether it's in a Cabinet or whether it's in a Shadow Cabinet or whether it's in a party room. And there's many times your view doesn't prevail and how you handle that is the mark of your character and your ability to work in a team environment. And I think that's a message for everybody.
Host
Just one last question. You are one of the Liberal MPs with one of the most diverse electorates. There's been a lot of discussion about immigration policy and how to have a nuanced debate about that. Can I ask, are you getting feedback from your electorate about the discussion going on by some of your colleagues?
Alex Hawke
No, that's stopped. I think Sussan Ley's strong stance on what happened was important. People have accepted that that's not a Liberal Party view. People who have misinterpreted have said that, so people have moved on from that. However, there is a push out there about immigration at the moment, and people confuse immigration in Australia with immigration and what's happened in Europe or other parts of the world. There's been one of the biggest mass migrations of people from the Middle East to Europe in world history. That is different to us inviting people to come here, inviting to come here because of their skills, inviting to come here and then asking them to be Australians and inviting them to be Australians, our process is very orderly in Australia of migration and people are welcomed and they integrate and we have a very successful country at that.
ENDS