Transcript - Interview with Hamish McDonald, Sydney Mornings, ABC Radio
The Hon Alex Hawke MP
Shadow Minister for Industry and Innovation
Manager of Opposition Business in the House
Interview with Hamish McDonald, Sydney Mornings, ABC Radio
Topics: Net Zero, Liberal Party, Tomago, industry policy, energy policy, Prime Minister.
E&OE...
HAMISH MCDONALD, HOST
At 17 minutes to nine, though, all signs are pointing towards the Liberal Party dumping its net zero commitment following the move of the junior coalition partner, the Nationals. That weekend decision by the Nationals seems to be causing some turmoil within the Liberals and the discussions taking place are not just about climate policy. The leadership of Sussan Ley seems to now be a major topic of discussion with replacement candidates being canvassed widely, both named and unnamed party sources in the papers. The coalition is about to hold its regular joint party room meeting this morning where net zero is bound to be a topic on the agenda. Alex Hawke is the Manager of Opposition Business, one of Sussan Ley's key backers. He's in our Parliament House studios this morning. Good morning to you.
ALEX HAWKE
Good morning, Hamish.
HOST
You represent a Sydney electorate. Could you explain for your voters; what's your position on whether the Liberals should remain committed to net zero by 2050?
ALEX HAWKE
Well, like most of my colleagues, we have always been concerned about the cost of net zero. You know, at any cost and any price, the government's projections are showing over time that neither are they going to meet their emissions reductions targets, even with their 2035 or 2030 climate targets or their 2050 targets. But the cost is also blowing out as well. We're seeing that translate to energy bills for households, 40 per cent increase since Labor was elected in everybody's bill. Everybody knows that. But as the Shadow Industry Minister as well, I can tell you heavy industry in Australia is on its knees on energy cost as well. And the bailouts that the government are doing are in the billions for these big companies as well. So the cost of net zero is starting to hit our economy. It's extremely high. The government has no plan to reduce that cost. It keeps talking about future projections. But each of these projections is being pushed back in terms of cost. So, you know, we have grave concerns about it.
HOST
So what is your position then? Would you like to see the Liberal Party abandon the commitment to net zero?
ALEX HAWKE
Well, as a member of the Energy Working Group, we're almost through our process as a Liberal Party. I mean, the National Party has taken a view, as you know, this week. They're a smaller party. They're a rural and regional based party. We have always been both a rural and a city party. And there is a diversity of views inside our party, which reflects the electorate. I must say there's a diversity of views out there with all your listeners as well. So we're taking our time to get that right. We're close to the end of that process as well. But we'll take our own view.
HOST
It doesn't sound like you remain particularly committed to net zero. If we're interpreting what you're saying, I know you're not being explicit about it. Could you be a little more explicit?
ALEX HAWKE
Well, I won't preempt what we're going to finalise. I think that process will be another few weeks. There is some work to do.
HOST
But I'm asking you as a representative of a Sydney electorate, you know, we had Melissa McIntosh on yesterday. She was very clear about what her voters think and how she intends to reflect that. I'm asking you as someone that represents an electorate here.
Well, I've always heard from my electorate a couple of things. I mean, they want to see emissions reduction and the government to take climate change seriously. That's pretty much a universal view. The Nationals are saying that as well. We are concerned about the cost. You know, the idea that the government can fix all this through our taxation system or through legislation, I think, is deeply flawed. We were against legislating the net zero target. We voted against it in the last parliament and just because we have a law that says that, it doesn't mean it's going to happen. And we've really got to focus on the technology. We've really got to focus on the real way that we can reduce emissions without driving up the cost of power to an insanely high level. 40% increase in power bills is really having an inflationary effect in our economy. It's hurting the price of everything.
HOST
Wouldn't it be more honest, though, to acknowledge the decade or so of climate policy wars that we've had in Australia as a key factor in where our energy bills are sitting today?
ALEX HAWKE
Well, I do acknowledge the wars and I do acknowledge the public's changed its view several times. I mean, the public clearly voted against Labor's carbon tax in 2013 and that was a mandate given to a Liberal government and we removed Labor's carbon tax. That was with the support of the Australian people. The public's changed its mind a couple of times. The government continues to say that we can get to net zero without power bills. They say they're going to come down at some point. They said $275 they would come down. That's been a direct lie. They continue to say things will get cheaper. But there is never an answer as to when things will get cheaper.
HOST
But the indication is that the longer you defer this, the more expensive the transition becomes. And in debating this, now you're sort of putting, it seems, responsibility for this at the feet of the Australian public rather than politicians who do seem to enjoy arguing about it. But putting that to one side, if we did have clear policy certainty and frameworks over the last decade and a half, there's an argument we wouldn't have the power prices we have today.
ALEX HAWKE
There's an argument about that. We are a democracy. We have a plurality of views. That's perfectly normal in a democracy. And the public are very familiar with it. And people move on these issues, as do politicians. And yeah, I do, the Australian public are always responsible. They choose the politicians and they decide the elections. And they have decided at various elections, various things about our power.
HOST
But if that's the case, hasn't the Australian government just decided to support a government that has a particular set of policies and therefore a mandate to deliver on them?
ALEX HAWKE
And the thing the Labor government has been clear on since 2022 and 2025 is that it will drive down power costs. Now, Hamish, that hasn't happened. It isn't happening. Today, you've mentioned the solar sharer thing. It's unclear how that will lower power prices as well. So everything, every intervention the government is making is pushing up the cost of energy. The cost of energy drives everything in the economy. And so why people are feeling the pain is this constant drive on energy, 40% on household bills. Heavy industry is collapsing in Australia because of energy price.
HOST
Yeah, it's interesting. I was just looking back through the records of what the heavy industry has had to say about this. And it was only two years ago that actually this group of heavy industry led by AI group had said the main thing, they call themselves the Australian Industry Energy Transitions Initiative, they said the thing they need most, it was bullet point one, is to set a strong, clear, enduring framework with a net zero emissions goal to align industry, finance and government. They said this can be done, but they need that certainty. So why are you offering more uncertainty by considering abandoning it altogether?
ALEX HAWKE
Well, look, the certainty that's required is a fixed power price for a business in heavy industry. It's their number one input cost. And that's what every industry is saying. And when you look at the cost of the bailout to the taxpayer, some of these are in the billions of dollars, others are in the hundreds of millions. I mean, these are very expensive bailouts. So that certainty isn't working. The certainty that we have, we have the highest wages in the world, we can't compete on wages. We have the highest regulatory framework.
HOST
Because if bailouts are a problem…
ALEX HAWKE
Bailout’s are a huge problem.
HOST
…don't you need then to also be honest that it would involve government intervention to keep coal going?
ALEX HAWKE
No, it's not about coal. That's not the issue. The issue for a lot of industry is gas and electricity. And some industry uses just gas. They don't need the electricity. They actually need gas to manufacture. And even under our gas arrangements, the reason the coalition took a domestic gas reservation policy to the election was our gas is exported. But it isn't fixed at a stable price. We have energy abundance in Australia. And yet we charge pensioners through the roof for electricity and we charge our own Australian manufacturing and businesses through the roof charges. We need to do actual things to lower the cost of energy. And that's our that's our argument in the coalition.
HOST
Alex Hawke is here. Let me know your thoughts on this. 1300 222 702 is the number. You've been a key backer of Sussan Ley's leadership. Can she survive this? Reading the papers near terminal, some of the descriptions to her leadership. Can she pull this off given that many of the moderates who supported her do want continued clear and decisive action on climate change?
ALEX HAWKE
Yeah, I think opposition leader is one of the toughest jobs in Australian politics. It always has been doesn't matter the personality that occupies it or the party. And people love to commentate about it, especially liberal opposition leaders and the media seem to enjoy it particularly. Colleagues are minded to land the policy. We'll do that. We'll then be clear about our focus on the government and look, Sussan will lead us. There's no one's proposing anything different.
HOST
When I look across the electoral map of Sydney, so many of the seats that you've lost in recent years have gone to these teal independents that have wanted decisive action on climate change, Zali Steggall, Sophie Scamps, Allegra Spender, even Kylea Tink when that seat existed. Do you think you're going to win those seats back by abandoning net zero?
ALEX HAWKE
Look, I think we can win those seats back regardless of our position on net zero. The issues of each election are different. Each of the elections we lost there wasn't singularly about climate change. Last time I was very convinced nuclear power was a step change and it's something I believe in passionately as a liberal in the future. Our policy wasn't right. The electorate didn't like it and they're not ready for it. But it doesn't mean that we shouldn't keep proposing intelligent solutions to our energy mix like nuclear for the future.
HOST
But I suppose it just goes to the question of whether you could convince voters in those seats that you're a reasonable alternative government if you don't support net zero targets.
ALEX HAWKE
It's a very fine calculation in those seats. Most of those seats are 1% either way. You know, we have to make a case on the economy. The Liberal Party is a broad party. Net zero is one issue that is important to a lot of people in those seats. It's also economic liberalism is very important and that's what Sussan Ley is saying. We do have to be the party of lower taxes. We do have to be the party of smaller regulation. Obviously letting people make their own choices in business and deregulation and these things are also important to people.
HOST
I know you said that there's no other alternative to Susan Lee right now but clearly Angus Taylor's in the papers this morning. Andrew Hastie is mentioned frequently as a possible contender. I guess in recent weeks we've heard a pretty strong reaction from Sydney voters to Sussan Ley's comments regarding Kevin Rudd, you know, removed as ambassador, heard a lot about her commentary regarding the Prime Minister's Joy Division t-shirt. Do you think she's just sort of missed the agenda? She's sort of miscalculated what matters to voters?
ALEX HAWKE
No, I think you get hyper-analysed as opposition leader. I think opposition leaders have a go on various things. Sometimes they come off, sometimes they don't.
HOST
But did it just look a bit childish, this stuff about the t-shirt?
ALEX HAWKE
Well, Kevin Rudd is one of the most divisive figures in Australian politics. The Labor Party removed him as Prime Minister and so he has a storied history with Australians and a lot of Australians do think he probably shouldn't be the ambassador.
HOST
Do you think the t-shirt stuff looked a bit childish?
ALEX HAWKE
I understand the concern about the t-shirt. I think you can go either way on that. I support the fact that, you know, if you're Prime Minister and you're on an official trip and you're walking off the plane and you've got full service uniform people saluting you at the bottom, you probably should dress the part. You know, I know he wanted the media not to film him and he wanted to get off the plane in some t-shirt. But look, if you're on an official trip, you've got to look official. I think that's the broader point.
HOST
Alex Hawke, thank you for your time this morning.
ALEX HAWKE
Thank you.
ENDS